I am starting to develop an application, and I want to target Elementary as my primary OS. But looking into it, I see Elementary uses and recommends Vala, it seems to be the Elementary equivalence of Objective-C. There is a current discussion about dropping support for Vala: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/vala-list/2016-September/msg00047.html, and due to the reasons given, I wouldn't want to use Vala even if they don't drop it - the core developers are long gone, and bugs aren't getting addressed. Where does this leave Elementary development? Would Elementary step in to support Vala like they have with ValaDoc? If they do, will it be real support, or just a continuation of the current state? These questions make me wonder if Elementary is really a suitable target.
"PSA: if you want to write a new @gnome application, don't use Vala; if you're already using it, consider porting to a non-dead language." https://twitter.com/ebassi/status/827482509982195712
that's a good question. you could ask your question at http://elementaryos.stackexchange.com/ stackexchange: https://elementaryos.stackexchange.com/users/45/daniel-foré Or: https://twitter.com/DanielFore
Hm, I've found the elementary stack exchange less than helpful in the past. And they represent the developers? I need to rethink this. I don't NEED to target elementary,I just assumed after reading through all this https://developer.elementary.io/ that there was a solid plan in place for doing so. Its starting to look like smoke & mirrors I'll just stick with M$.
Before you quit, I think you need to read this it might targeting you as a developer: https://medium.com/elementaryos/building-the-future-of-elementary-os-9df3fa940b67#.gzrhajp55
But I don't get a straight answer. I guess that in itself tells me I need to know. There goes 3 months work down the tubes. I now understand why there aren't always linux versions of software. My life will certainly be easier now that I've taken targeting linux out of the equation.
There is always a risk in using distributions like Elementary with their own graphical environment. Are they able to maintain project, even if there are big problems like the future of Vala. A "pay what you like" model is maybe a possible solution, but if it's not working: no problem: there are enough other distributions very similar to Elementary, like Deepin and Solus. And I am very sure: Elementary needs a better and bigger community, otherwise it will not survive. The best ideas will survive, instead of a vendor dictating things for you. I don't understand the point of view of darkoverlordofdata. Far too many software projects under Windows are gone, and people are forced to use other applications, and many times they are even not able to read their data again. Under Linux: it's still open-source, there is always a way to restore and use your data again. And yes, we'll still need some progress in available software in some areas, like video editors, software synths etc. But in a lot of other areas there are enough alternatives, and many times this alternatives are much better then the prop. alternatives. Darkoverlordofdata: if you are really a developer, use a language you are familiar with. If that language stops to exist, it shoudn't be a problem to port your software. Even Microsoft developers were forced to switch many times, because MS decided to switch to another language, many many times.
I admire your idealism, and I agree with much of what you say. But this is not about ideals, this is about Elementary wasting months of my time on obsolete technology. What really gets to me is that they won't disclose the status or discuss it. So I feel skruued. I feel lied to. So when you contribute to the AppCenter crowd fund (which is awesome) think abuout the relationship you need to build with develpers to populate that AppCenter.
That part, i can understand: communication is not the best part of the Elementary developers. About the Vala part: it is possible that they still discussing the maintenance of the project... Btw Vala is not completely dead at this moment, some bugs are fixed with the latest release in december 2016. If Vala is good, it will survive: Open-source projects are darwinistic by nature . And actually, i do think that it will survive, there is not much of another choice because gtk-sharp is dead. I am not convinced that AppCenter is a good idea, but we'll see.. There are still a lot of things to address: like fixing some bugs in the filemanager, too many bugs in the Calendar etc.
did you see this earlier on? "PSA: if you want to write a new @gnome application, don't use Vala; if you're already using it, consider porting to a non-dead language." https://twitter.com/ebassi/status/827482509982195712
Yes, but i don't think he is right, it's maintened, there are still bugfixes and so on. And no there are not that many alternatives at this moment. There is still a need for a C# like language. And to be honest: Python is great for many things, but there is a reason why many projects were ported from python to Vala. And there is still a big list of applications writen in Vala and actively maintened. I really like valum e.g. Talk to people like Daniel Espinosa...
It was Daniel's blog that started this: https://blogs.gnome.org/despinosa/2016/09/30/should-we-drop-vala/ After researching that, I found this thread, which is rather disparaging: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/vala-list/2016-September/msg00001.html, and asks the question "Should we just tell people to not use Vala in the first place" This question seems to be answered by the PSA several months later. I then started a discussion on Reddit. The consensus was 'deader than a doornail'
I am still not convinced, and if i look into the Reddit discussion most of it is BS. The thread on the mailinglist is interesting, and shows that there is something like a maintenance problem, but it still doesnt mean it's dead. Again: is there an alternative ? If you really want to switch to another language, look into D (gtkd). It should not be difficult to port your application, but if I were you: stick with Vala. Note: someone telling the world to use Python of Go for developing desktop applications for Linux as an alternative like some posters do, has in my humble opionion really no idea... and btw if something is actually dying right now, it are projects like go-gtk.
There are plenty of alternatives. I don't need to use Vala. Or Elementary. Or Gnome for that matter. FSharp/DotNet is a strong contender and then I won't have to try and cross-compile GLib for android. After a 35 year career in software, almost 20 of it spent at M$, I was hoping to give back, and open source seemed like the place where people could do things for the right reason. The only reason I chose Vala+ElemenraryOS was that I trusted the https://developer.elementary.io/ site. But there are others.
When our conversation started, stackexchange had just seemed to suggest that I should be using gjs rather than vala, and when I asked them to confirm that, I was accused of starting a language war. So I was a bit agitated earlier - thanks for continuing the conversation anyway.
I really like the conversation And btw: it should be nice if f-sharp gets qt org gtk bindings ... Enjoy your weekend !
